Episode 6 | Half the Gear, Twice the Chaos

I think it was around 2:00 PM. The second truck rolls up. What do you think is in that truck? Not everything you're looking for, probably, if I'm a betting girl. Oh no, they sent us cables, but they sent us the wrong cables. Of course they did.

Hey everyone, I'm Jen Santos, and this is Mayhem and Method, where event pros tell the real story of what happened and what it reveals about how events actually work.

Welcome back to another episode of Mayhem and Method. I'm here today with Elias Puurunen, the founder of Tractus Events, an event production agency that specializes in hybrid and in-person events for Fortune 500 companies. Elias, thank you so much for being here with me today.

Hey, Jen. It's good to be here.

I think this is gonna be great because I love watching all of your energy on LinkedIn and all the ways that you geek out about event production, and I find it delightful to watch, which is why I invited you to be on here today because I want you to be able to share that energy with my guests today.

So what is one of your favorite ways to use AI in your job? If you do use it — I don't even know if you do, but if you do, I'd love to hear about one of your favorite ways to do so.

Oh my goodness, just one? I don't know, three? It's gonna take us a little while. Honestly, we've gone all in on the AI bandwagon — we make a lot of our own production tools for doing our virtual and hybrid events for our clients.

And so a lot of times if we need to make a custom adapter for something, like again, for the most recent charity marathon that we did, we needed to create an adapter between the company that was providing all the timing information and the software that was generating our on screen graphics. And so something like that used to require days and weeks of developer effort, my developer effort, and now I can just sic Codex, or you know, Claude Code, or whatever on that problem.

And it can make that adapter for me. And it's especially useful if it's gonna be like a one-time use, because let's face it, a lot of the events that we produce, sometimes they're one-offs, right? Or they have some aspect that needs to be customized just for them. So using AI to kind of bridge those gaps, using AI to make client-specific tools, and not feel bad about it — might not be the most maintainable thing in the world.

Another one that we use AI for is custom titles. So we discovered how to prompt Codex and AI to say, hey, here's my client's brand package. Here's their look and feel. Here's their preferred fonts. I need you to make an animated lower third specific to this client's production that we can bring on and bring off air.

And it does it, it's amazing.

That's really cool. That is really, really cool. And I love the client-specific adapters, because that's something that in the past you'd have had to pay easy five figures to be able to solve for. Right? And now you're like, hey, X, Y, half hour, a couple of kind of smoke tests and you're good, because you only need it for what, 48 hours maybe.

Like, it's just not that big a deal.

That's great. I love that. Yeah. Well another one that we used it for was, we had a client, they wanted to do a scavenger hunt at their trade show, scavenger hunt slash quiz, and so you get all the answers to all the quiz questions by going and visiting the exhibitors.

And so we needed to create a quiz and show a leaderboard for that. And again, it's — do we go and try to customize something off the shelf that requires a login and all sorts of other nonsense? Or realistically, do we just give everybody a code and have them put in their name and then show a scoreboard at the end of it and use AI to generate that?

And so we used AI to make the scavenger hunt quiz that we could integrate into the app and throw up on screen to show the leaderboard and do the draw winners, that sort of stuff that we can do in the span of an evening. Yeah. As opposed to, again, days and weeks of developer effort or finding that third party application that, realistically, they want a yearly subscription for.

Yeah. Something that you're going to use for three days.

Yep. Yeah. That is so cool. I love this. I mean, AI, once we get past just using it to write marketing copy, has so much potential for those of us that actually run the shows, and I'm really excited to see what people like you and others start doing going forward.

Oh yeah. No, and not to mention all of the show programming that we do — my guys, Luke and Mike, they basically pre-program all our shows now. With AI we can just say, here are the different cues. Here's what we need to trigger. Go make our templates for punching the show.

That's cool. That is so cool. Yeah. So I wanna hear from you one of your — I'm gonna call it a mayhem story, right? 'Cause this is Mayhem and Method, of something that really went sideways onsite.

Spend a couple of minutes telling me about what that story is for my audience and kind of put us in that space. And then what we'll do from there is we're gonna take kind of back up in time and we're gonna talk about what I like to say is, what happened before what happened, happened. 'Cause there's always something to learn. And it's never actually the moment that went sideways on site that caused what went sideways on site. There's always 18 steps before that.

So I will hand it over to you.

Well, the one that sticks out in my mind right now, 'cause I've got two stories in mind, but I'll go with the one that happened about two or three months ago. We were on site at your typical hotel venue with the typical in-house AV provider. We all know who we're talking about here. They recently retracted their IPO. So there's your hint.

And subtle.

Subtle, yeah. Yeah. And I wanna preface this story with the folks that we were working with on the ground were fantastic. But they were dealt a hand that was just completely unplayable.

Let me set the stage. So we have a three day conference plus tradeshow. Multiple breakout rooms. Main stage, trade show with a ballroom, right? We're all familiar with that kind of a setup. Each room needed to have two cameras, minimum, plus a downstage monitor for confidence notes, presenter notes, countdown timer. Projection of slides and a little bit of image magnification, IMAG, like we wanted to throw cameras up on the projectors, fairly straightforward show.

And we had a number of production meetings with the in-house AV company ahead of time. Now, one of the warning flags I should have probably paid a little bit more attention to was on one of the early quotes we got, there was going to be a boardroom meeting. And this boardroom meeting was about two and a half hours long, and we said we need a screen in that boardroom for — and it was gonna be about eight to 10 people in this boardroom.

Little conference boardroom. We need a screen in that boardroom for the team that's meeting in there. And so the venue quoted us, I think it was like a three or 4,000 lumen projector, which is like what you would use to light up your main keynote stage. I remember saying to the venue, you realize this is for a breakout room with 12 people. If we put that projector in there, we're gonna cook these people. Like this is overkill.

And so they came back and said, oh, we're sorry, we'll quote you a monitor instead. I thought, okay, fine, whatever.

So we have our production meetings. We figure out our stage plots, we figure out what gear is going to go where, and we set the AV order up. Okay, great. We get on site and on the first AV truck, half of the gear is missing. Just a full half of the gear is missing, and the gear that we have is not set up.

And also come to learn that the gear that we had ordered around for cameras, it turns out they weren't actually owned by the AV company. They were cross rented. So were the audio mixers. And some of the projectors were cross rented, and none of them were staged and setup and ready to go for our event. They were still locked on the settings from the prior event.

Oh no.

And then the onsite AV team had no idea how to reset all of this stuff.

Oh no. Right.

So as we're burning time trying to get everything set up and figure out what does the AV team need to go back to the warehouse and go get, we're also simultaneously going, okay, we need to reset half of this gear and we don't know how it's set up right now. Right? These cameras are locked, we're gonna have to hang them and do image flipping and all sorts of other stuff. So we go, okay, in order to manage that, let's set up what we've got. We can rough in the cable paths, but you guys are gonna have to roll a second truck and get more stuff from the warehouse.

And so AV team agrees to that. We roll a separate truck, fine. We get to about 11:00 AM, 12:00 PM. We're actually making some pretty good headway with the equipment that we've got. And my brain is going, we're in okay shape here. We're waiting for some equipment, but if that equipment arrives in a fairly timely fashion, we might still get outta here and be able to do a full crew rehearsal.

By the time, three, 4:00 PM hits. I think it was around 2:00 PM, the second truck rolls up. What do you think is in that truck?

Not everything you're looking for, probably, if I'm a betting girl.

Oh no, they sent us cables, but they sent us the wrong cables.

Of course they did.

And they still didn't send the second podium that we needed, and we still didn't have all of the cameras that we needed. So now it's, we gotta roll a third truck on top of all this stuff. Keep in mind, this is our one day to setup, test, rehearse, 'cause opening ceremonies are 8:00 AM tomorrow morning.

Yeah. And you can't keep the people there till midnight.

I mean, you can, but execs sure as heck aren't gonna want to be doing rehearsal after like five.

No, exactly.

So as we're navigating this situation, I go, okay, whatever, we're gonna have to deal with this. We're gonna have to continue setup as much as we can. I'm gonna do some Q2Qs and do some testing with the crew. Get them all trained up. I can let them go for the rest of the day, and we do all that stuff. But in the midst of doing all of that testing, we find that some of the Q2Qs are a little bit broken. So it actually was a bit of a blessing in disguise that we had this delay, because it meant we had to focus on some of our tech setup and some of our streaming setup, and it unveiled some of the last minute flaws in that setup. Which, we had a chance to kind of focus on that and fix it at say, three, 4:00 PM rather than being there till 11:00 PM. Finding out that we've got the right gear now, but our setup is busted.

Yeah. What are Q2Qs? Real quick, what are Q2Qs? That's a phrase I'm not familiar with.

Sure. So the idea is we're starting at, say, on our Stream Deck — we're using Stream Decks to punch our show. And so we're saying, okay, Cue A1, that's our pre-session reset. So that brings up the title slide, that brings up the countdown timer, that cues the Muzak, and that starts the stream online. So that just resets the room so that, when we hit A2, roll sponsors, the sponsor loop rolls online. Everybody's seeing that, we can confirm everything works. And then when we hit A3, we transition to our main camera. The projectors go to the slides in room, and the downstage monitor has timer plus slides.

Cool. Okay. So we're punching through the different — the cues are the different segments of each of the live. Yeah, that makes sense. Thank you.

Yeah. So for us, when we had these issues with all the equipment that was being rolled for us, it gave us a chance to say, okay, we're gonna focus on what we can control. We're not just gonna sit here and twiddle our thumbs and go like, oh, we can't do anything. There's always something to do on site. And so we found something to do, which was check to make sure that our streaming setups made sense. And there was one or two little last minute bugs that, once we're on site with the equipment that we had, we needed to sort a couple signal paths out.

So we got that sorted out, and then once the gear arrived, we're able to rough it in, test that out, make sure it works. And I got out of there pretty late, but it made for a really comfy three days. My guys were able to just run the show, run the breakout sessions on their own. And by the time we were halfway through day one, I actually had a little bit of downtime. It was nice.

That is really, really cool. I mean, I think right up until the fire alarm.

Well, yeah, that's a whole different thing, which — that was another lesson in — anybody, if you're running an event and you don't have — if you've never thought about what do you do in case of emergency, or in case the fire alarm goes off, you should create that plan. You know how on flights we always do the safety briefing?

Yep.

And you go like, well, I know how to put on a seatbelt. I put on a seatbelt a million times. Like you still do the safety briefing on takeoff, and just before landing, they remind you to be mindful of where your exits are in case of emergency or evacuation. It takes five minutes at the beginning of the show. In case of fire alarm, take these exits, take that exit, stay where you are, we'll do a head count. Because we did have the fire alarm go off, and it went to a phase two, which was a full building evacuation.

Oh geez.

And this was right after — now, thankfully it was right after a session closed. So everybody was going on break, but then all of a sudden over the radios we got, fire alarm, and they're telling us to evacuate and they were sealing the doors.

Oh, geez.

Yeah. And so one of the organizers and I, we tag teamed, went out, made sure our rooms were cleared, made sure our people were rallied where the rally points were, secured our different rooms, and waited for the all clear from the venue. Yeah. And then we got the all clear from the venue, got everybody back into the rooms. And then, due to the magic of remote production, we were still able to start our final sessions of the day on time despite the alarm.

Holy cow. That is amazing. That is super, super cool. I've had bomb threats. I've had to cancel an event 'cause of a hurricane already. Those are probably the two biggest things that I've had to go through. I've not yet had a fire alarm, but I just did a big flagship event, 20 plus thousand person flagship event. And we did have to go through the whole, oh, what would happen if we were completely down with the internet? Like, can we still scan people into sessions? Turns out we could. I don't know how those sessions would've gone, but we could have scanned people into them. Right. I don't know what the production team — I didn't sit through their meeting, but I knew how to actually keep the scanners going. So, yeah.

But these are all the things we have to think about, right?

Yeah, for sure. And then there's also, there's event security too. We had one year, we had one event where we had a VIP speaker, and that VIP speaker had some threats against them. And we had a known credible threat of a possible unregistered person who was attempting to get access to the event. And so we were very strict that year about anybody that's on the floor without name badges needing to be escorted to the registration desk to make sure that they are who they say they are, and they have valid registration. And we bumped up our security measures.

Yep. Yeah. That's the sort of stuff that you do have to think about.

Yeah. I mean, I've seen more and more events actually starting to go with photos on their name badges for that exact reason.

Right. People, particularly for a longer event — somebody goes one day at a big trade show and then you swap your badge with somebody else, and suddenly you're granting access to a whole bunch more people.

I've seen all of that. So to go back to the three trucks, which seems incredible to me — I mean, first I wanna say, what a great job that you were able to kind of quickly come in and identify exactly what was missing and when. But you said you were talking about the board meeting or the boardroom. And having the big keynote presentation thing. I'm sorry, I'm forgetting what that word is. And they just swapped it out for a monitor. And you said that should have been my clue. So that should have been your clue about what?

Being a lot more — because I've worked with venues a lot, and I've worked with different AV teams, and my general experience has been that if you say, hey, I need a monitor, or I need this, or I need that — when the venue is quoting out, or when the venue's preferred partner or exclusive partner, depending on who you're working with, when they quote you out a setup for a given room, you have — one of the reasons that you go with the in-house provider is you are relying on their familiarity with the venue, and having an idea of what makes sense in a given room. And the fact that I was getting a — picture just your typical boardroom in a hotel, right? Seating 12 people. Why on earth would you put a projector in there that you would've used on your main keynote stage? Okay. Right. You're just gonna bake everybody that's in there. Yeah. And so for me, that was what I should have done in that moment — actually gone through and said line by line, I need the model numbers of everything that you're going to either rent or cross rent, because I need to know this makes sense. Yeah. 'Cause if you can't quote a boardroom properly, I have serious questions about everything else on the quote.

Yeah. Okay. No, that makes perfect sense as you say that, because yeah, you're like, spidey sense is telling me they can't even get a boardroom right. What are the odds of them actually getting the rest of the show right?

Right? Yeah. It's kinda like it's like when you get an RFP and you're like, I don't think you understand what you're quoting here. Like your price is so ridiculously low. That's what I see a lot of times, right? People wanna win on price, and so they way underquote, and I'm like, this is gonna end real, and I'll actually steer my clients away from those people. I'm like, they have no idea what they've just quoted here, because they are going to lose their shirts on this engagement, which means either they're probably gonna be massively understaffed for it, or they're so inexperienced, they just simply don't even know what they don't know.

In this situation, there's a related factor of this, which is independent AV companies trying to underprice or undercut the in-house AV, trying to save the client money. Yep. And here's the deal. Encore has gotten bigger and bigger and bigger over the years. That's a fact. And this idea of, I'm an AV company and my business model is going to be whatever quote you get from Encore, we're going to undercut it by 20% and come in cheaper. Yeah. Well, that business model might work in the short term to get the clients that are most price sensitive. But then all you need to do is turn around and say to Encore, yeah, we're not using you for all AV, and all of a sudden the internet and Wi-Fi is $20,000.

Right. They'll just make up the difference there.

Yeah. But the bigger issue I have with that is oftentimes when I get quotes from Encore or other in-house providers, I actually don't always have an issue with the number that they quote. I have an issue with the amount of value that's being delivered for that number. And I think there's an opportunity for independent, third party AV companies to say, okay, cool. Encore quoted you $150,000, $200,000 on this show. Let us show you what you could get if you go with us. Right? And all of a sudden these in-house AV companies become — I would love to see a world where the in-house AV companies, maybe this is a pipe dream, right, where the in-house AV companies become the budget or economy option, and the third party AV companies are like, yeah, you want to put on a show. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's gonna cost more, but look what you're gonna get. You're gonna get a fully staffed production team. You're gonna get a production team that's actually gonna get paid a good day rate, and they're gonna be somewhat trained on the latest stuff. No offense, and again, there's no shade to the AV company I was working with on site, but I work with NDI technology a lot, so it's a way of sending audio and video over network cables. And I was telling the onsite techs about NDI, about NDI cameras and NDI devices, and it was the first time that they had heard of this stuff. NDI has been around as a technology for 10 years.

Oh wow.

And Pro AV and other institutions are starting to latch onto this idea. And broadcasters too. And I was sitting here thinking, this is a major AV company, major in-house AV company. How are their in-house staff not trained up on the latest stuff? Considering what they're getting billed out at.

Yeah. And I feel like your world is very similar to mine in that — I see in the industry, not us personally of course, but I see in the industry, the software and everything is kind of old, and you've been using it for 15 years, and there's sort of like legacy stuff that just sort of lives on. And I feel like AV is — and a lot of times the event planners we work with, they bring us in after the fact, right? They've already signed the contract, they've already got the budget. And then it's like, oh yeah, I mean, I guess like I was on site not too long ago at a field marketing event, and an attendee walked up and said, yeah, you guys look like you have your act together, and we have an event in two weeks. Can you help us out?

Oh no, I'm like, what? Like you gotta — but they don't think about these things, right? Like they're worrying about floral arrangements and F&B and all the really visible things, and all of a sudden, at the last minute, they're like, oh yeah, I mean, I guess I need to have somebody doing badges and a check-in desk and everything, and it was like, oh yeah, I guess I need somebody to run the cameras, and they don't really think about how much more needs to go into that. Kinda like what you were talking about with this Q2Q thing, right, and the fact that when you bring in a professional that has done this thousands of times, you have everything so scripted that you can literally be like, okay, button one, button two, button three, and your team can be — like you said, you can get a break, you can be relaxed a little bit. Somebody can go and actually run off to the bathroom. Wouldn't that be exciting? We get time to eat, all those things. And then what I love is when you're so organized, is that you get a few minutes to kind of think about the surprise and delight elements that you can add. You could say, you know what, this is table stakes for us, but if you really wanna impress your audience, these are the things that you can add. And I think that's what — my very long way of saying that, I feel like that's what you were getting to.

Yeah, exactly. It's, let's not just put on a show. Let's put on an experience. Because tying this back to the business side, if you surprise and delight your audience this year, they're gonna be more likely to buy tickets for next year's event. And they're gonna be more likely to say to other people, you need to come. Right.

Yeah. And then this just also feeds into social media and every other marketing strategy that you can think of. You've got footage of this amazing experience, of this amazing event. Oh my goodness, I need to be part of this. You can crank up that FOMO to 11 for next year's events. Totally. 'Cause one thing that I always keep in mind is, what we do this year is going to set the difficulty level for next year's ticket sales, right?

Yeah. Like I look at some of these events — I feel like it was Canva, the last couple of years. They did some really cool stuff in their keynotes. Right. And I was like, I mean, I use Canva, sure, but I'm not like a Canva user, right? And I'm like, even I wanna go now because it just looks so cool. Right? And I think that's what everybody does, and they're like, well, even if I'm ancillary, like sort of use the tool, I'm like, maybe I could shell out a few thousand dollars to be able to get some cool selfies there.

Sure. Yeah. Exactly. So another thing to keep in mind too is, if you're planning an event, make sure the venue has a stage. We were working in a venue, actually this was down in Tampa. And the venue themselves — the client I was hired by did not realize that venues don't always come with stages.

Oh yeah. So we had to get stages trucked in. And this event was going to be a one day kind of workshopy thing, with some keynote speeches. But we only got access to the venue at midnight, and the show started at 8:30 AM.

Yeah. And no stage, no AV, no tech in the room. Like we got a box with air inside. We had to transform that into an event space, and still get some sleep somewhere in there. Yeah. And it was in the middle of downtown Tampa, and we were trucking in stuff and coordinating all that. And so you need to make sure that your venue actually has a stage. Yeah. And you wanna find that out as soon as possible, because that's gonna add to your cost. The worst time to find out about all that stuff is about two weeks out.

Right. Right, exactly. Yeah. You can't do anything. It's way too late to try to reserve stuff. Whatever you're gonna get is gonna be like third tier if you can get it at all.

Post-show, it sounds like you guys totally killed it. Did a great job getting the show done. It went out. You said you got a break and everything. So talk to me about kind of the post event debrief experience with both the client and then the venue. Like, I'm just dying to know what those conversations looked like.

The venue hasn't really returned our calls, so that's weird. A little bit awkward.

Weird. I mean, so the venue AV company has not really returned our calls, but the venue themselves, they were fantastic to work with. They were apologetic for the alarm and all that. And we said, look, that's outside of your control. You don't need to apologize for that. That happens. We appreciate the fact that you guys invoked emergency protocols and treated it like an actual emergency, right? Yeah. Aside from the fact that you're required to do that, you still did everything by the book, which is what we expect. Everybody can be happy once the whole event is done. You did what needed to be done.

That's cool. So, but with the client, we were able to supply some ISO, isolated recordings of video and audio. So that was a lot of fun. And the client walked away very pleased. The production quality was quite high. We made sure that they were insulated from the effects of any of the AV issues that were going on. That's kind of what I view my job as. They have a million and one things to be worried about. They've hired me to take care of the AV side, so they don't need to worry about that. As far as on-site, as far as the client was concerned, yeah, everything's, we're setting things up, we're tweaking some things. They don't need to know that there's a second or third truck that needs to roll. Yeah, and so from their side, they were happy and pleased in all the debriefs. There was nothing really to discuss, aside from the fact that we were very frank with them and said, listen, in future years, we need to think about whether it's worth negotiating AV and internet with the venue before we sign with the in-house AV provider. That way we can lock in those good rates for AV and Wi-Fi and internet. And then we bring in a third party AV company that isn't the venue's preferred, because we're gonna have a lot more control over that. Yeah. We're gonna be able to control the logistics of that end to end. And it's not that I must have full control over every aspect, but when I've got the ability to say, I need the following equipment and I need the following SKUs, and I need you to guarantee me that you're going to give me the following pieces of equipment, with a third party AV company, I'm much more likely — my experience has been I'm much more likely to get exactly what I asked for in show ready condition, rather than whatever stuff they happen to have lying around at the back of the warehouse, or cross rented from another event the night before.

Right. So, and I think that's exactly right, is that the client does need to know what's going on, right? You handle it all and then have the conversation afterwards. So in this case, just kind of backing way up in time here, sounds like the client had signed the contract already. They had closed everything, and then they brought you in after the fact, right?

Yeah. And honestly, that's as much as we've all tried to campaign for, of clients not to do that, it happens.

Exactly. I get it. There's pressure. You want to sign the venue. You wanna make sure you've got a space for next year. There's only 365 days in the year. And if you've got an event that you say it either happens in May or June or April, there's only so many cities. There's only so many slots. You're competing for space. I get it. Yep. But it's like, let's get that conversation started as early as possible in the process. Because as soon as you sign that contract, your leverage is gone.

Exactly. No, that makes perfect sense to me. Well, I wanna thank you for being here today because I know I learned a ton. It was a great conversation. So many good takeaways from it, and all things we all know the venues should be doing differently. And I love when we're able to kinda go behind the curtain, or in this case, behind the pipe and drape, and see what actually happens to make a show work. So I'd love to have you take a minute, tell my listeners today a little bit more about you, where they can learn about you and your business, and how they can connect with you afterwards.

Yeah, for sure. So if you're ever looking to get in contact with me, easiest way is I post a lot on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. Just look up Elias Puurunen, P-U-U-R-U-N-E-N. Yes, it's made from unwanted Scrabble tiles. I can't do anything about that now.

So there's two parts to what we do. One is just the direct event production. So virtual and hybrid event production is our go-to. We started virtual first, and then we bring hybrid broadcast. We integrate with a lot of AV companies on site, have a lot of fun doing that. And then the other side of that is we build a lot of our own tools, both hardware and software for event production.

One of the tools that we built just recently for a Fortune 500 town hall — the presenter needed to control their own slides. They wanted to use their DSAN clicker. But we needed to control slides for the English livestream, the French livestream, the in-room notes, and the in-room projection. So we needed to trigger four PowerPoints. But the kicker was that two of those PowerPoint machines were hanging out in our data center. So we've got two PowerPoint machines on site, two PowerPoint machines in the cloud. How the heck are we gonna control all these things? So we made a simple little hardware box that we plugged the DSAN into, and it sent the signals out to all four of those PowerPoints and kept 'em all in sync. So that was fun. So that's some of what we do as well. So if there's any custom integration work that you need to make your event production bits all work together, we build those as well.

So you can find out more about that stuff by going to tractusevents.com, T-R-A-C-T-U-S events dot com. Those are probably the easiest ways to find me. And if you want to hear my rambling about why I think virtual events are so awesome, I've also written a book called Memorable Profitable Virtual. It's available anywhere fine books are sold. Shameless plug.

Excellent. I love a good shameless plug, and I'm right with you on virtual events. I think we could do a whole nother episode on just the value of virtual events.

A hundred percent. And as I say that, I'm really gonna set that up with you. The fact that they're a pipeline for your in-person events. There's that, and there's many, many other reasons. We could talk about accessibility.

Well, accessibility is a huge one for me personally, for a lot of different reasons. So I'm seriously gonna set that up with you for like a couple months down the road. So let's do that.

Let's do it. Let's do it.

Okay, so I wanna thank you so much. This was really fun. And I would say for anybody that's listening or anybody that's watching this today, go back, check out Elias's LinkedIn because it's just really super fun to watch his passion behind everything he does.

Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you so much. This is fun.

Thanks for listening in to another rollercoaster someone else rode so you don't have to. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to rate, review, subscribe, and share, so other event pros can find the show. Until next time, tame the mayhem.

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